Making Smart Medicare Choices (podcast)

00:37
But whether you should, and why you might want to, can be complicated. To help us untangle those questions, I'm welcoming Rebecca Pavese back to the podcast. Rebecca is Palisades Hudson's director of tax practice, but her experience goes well beyond tax planning. In her 25 years with the firm, Rebecca has worked throughout Palisades Hudson's practice areas, including insurance planning. She also wrote the chapter on health insurance for our firm's book, The High Achiever's Guide to Wealth. Rebecca, welcome back to the podcast.

Rebecca Pavese
Thanks, Amy.

Amy Laburda 01:06
So Rebecca, I chatted with our colleague Eric Meermann about Medicare broadly back in season one, but as a refresher or for new listeners, can we just go through the basic building blocks of how Medicare works?

Rebecca Pavese
Sure. Of course. There's four parts to Medicare. People don't realize that there's different components of it. They're labeled A through D. A and B are what make up your “traditional” or your “original” Medicare, and what most people think of when they think of Medicare insurance.

01:34
Part A provides for inpatient hospital care and other facilities, like skilled nursing facilities and hospice care at end of life. And Part B is for non-hospital expenses. So those are your doctor visits, outpatient care, vaccines, medical equipment. Part C is Medicare Advantage. These are Medicare-approved plans but are provided by private insurers. And then Part D covers prescription medication.

02:02
So you can have Parts A and B or Part C, but never both at once. And then some Part Cs have prescription care, or you can add Part D to that, but you can't have Part C with A and B.

Amy Laburda
While we're here, can we just briefly touch on, with traditional Medicare, what the costs look like? So when people are comparing it to Medicare Advantage, they kind of have that in mind.

Rebecca Pavese
Yeah. So for most people, Part A is going to have zero dollar premiums.

02:29
And you'll have met that requirement if you have paid into Medicare for at least 10 years. And then on top of that, you have the Medicare Part B, which right now for most people is $185 a month, but that is subject to IRMAA, which is an income-related monthly adjustment amount. That ranges from about $259 to $629.

Amy Laburda
OK. And I know one of the big sort of points of anxiety for a lot of people is signing up

02:57
initially. When should people sign up for Medicare?

Rebecca Pavese
Sure. So your Medicare enrollment window is a seven-month period. It starts three months before your 65th birthday and goes through three months after your 65th birthday.

Amy Laburda
And so what happens if you miss that window? Say you forget to put it on your calendar, or something just comes up, and that window rolls by. What happens?

Rebecca Pavese
Yeah, it's not great. There are three main areas of consequence that you want to be worried about. Right? A gap in coverage, delay and costs.

03:27
So more specifically, if you don't file or apply when you're 65, or in that window right before or after. So Part A, if you're not entitled to premium-free coverage, your premiums would incur a 10% surcharge. You will pay this monthly for twice the number of years you could have signed up for but didn't. So for example, if you apply two years late, you would pay it for four years. If you're late applying for Part B, you'll have a surcharge of 10% per year

03:56
in which you could have enrolled but didn't, and this surcharge is permanent. Part D is a 1% per month that you could have signed up for and didn't, so 12% per year. And like Part B, this penalty would go on as long as you participate in Medicare. Given the consequences and the late enrollment penalties, you want to keep this timeline on your calendar when you're in the vicinity of applying for Medicare.

Amy Laburda
OK, Rebecca, but say someone is still working. I think these days a lot of people

04:25
still find themselves working as they come up and even past age 65. What happens then?

Rebecca Pavese
If you're still working past the age of 65, it may impact your decisions about when to enroll in Medicare. This is because it may be more beneficial to stay on your employer's plan until you are ready to retire. And that would open a special enrollment period for you that would allow most actively employed people to delay enrollment in Parts A, B, C, and D without facing penalties. Of course, there's not a one-size-fits-all answer here.

04:55
One of the big things depends on the size of the firm you're working for. If you or your spouse are still working for a company with 20 or more employees, and that company provides health insurance and drug coverage, you're always eligible to delay. Whereas if your insurance is COBRA or you work for a company with less than 20 employees, you might still need to consider Medicare when you were initially eligible at age 65. Working for a company with greater than 20 employees,

05:20
there’s a law that requires insurance to be available to you regardless of age. So then you have to come to some decisions. Do you want to compare what you're paying for that benefit of health insurance or do you want to enroll in Part A? You may decide not — to enroll in Part A, but to defer Part B, and that's when you can delay it without a penalty. However, once you stop working or lose your health insurance, you have an eight-month window to enroll during the special enrollment period

05:50
when you can sign up for Medicare Part A, if you hadn't already, or add Part B. So that's what happens if you work for a large company with greater than 20 employees, because the law prohibits large companies from requiring Medicare-eligible employees to drop the [company] plan and sign up for Medicare. But this doesn't apply to companies with fewer than 20 employees. So generally, if you're working for one of these smaller firms, you'll need to sign up for Medicare A and B during the initial enrollment period.

Amy Laburda 06:16
So for people working for one of those bigger companies that the law applies to, I imagine Part A is more appealing to sign up for because, for most people, you're not paying for premiums. Are there any reasons not to sign up for Part A right away when you can?

Rebecca Pavese
The only reason you would really not sign up for Part A is if you want to contribute to a health savings account, because you can no longer do that once you elect to participate in Medicare Part A.

Amy Laburda
And I think it's fair to say for most people, Medicare is going to be a better deal as far as cost to coverage than

06:46
anything they were having before then. So signing up is in their best interest that way too.

Rebecca Pavese
Absolutely.

Amy Laburda
OK. Let's home in on Medicare Advantage a bit, which is, as you said, Part C, the two basically mean the same thing. How popular are these sorts of plans compared to Parts A and B, traditional Medicare, and what is really involved in them that makes them different?

Rebecca Pavese
Yes, so Medicare Advantage is actually up in recent years, statistically 25% from 2010.

07:14
And KFF, which is an independent source for health policy and needs, reports that 54% of Medicare beneficiaries actually participate in a Medicare Advantage plan. So you're talking about more than half. Since Part C is not one unified plan, people have different options when considering Medicare Advantage. So in 2025, people had about access to 25 different plans, but this varies based on where you live.

Amy Laburda 07:41
So for Medicare Advantage plans, I know you recently wrote an article for Palisades Hudson's Sentinel newsletter about them. And I wondered if we could just sort of touch on, in that article, the pros and cons you went over, maybe starting with the pros. What are the upsides to this kind of plan?

Rebecca Pavese
Yeah so,

07:58
like drives many things in life, the pro for this is cost. What makes people look at this. So the premiums tend to be low, sometimes nothing beyond what's required to make it equivalent to Part B. And cost-sharing can be less. So it sets your copay instead of coinsurance. So Medicare has coinsurance, which means you're going to pay a certain percentage of… usually 20% of the cost with no limit. Versus Medicare Advantage will limit that number, have a maximum.

08:26
And also maybe just have a copay or a flat fee. And actually it's by law and by design that Medicare Advantage plans have an annual out-of-pocket maximum, whereas traditional Medicare doesn't have this cap. One of the other big pros for Medicare Advantage is they have expanded coverage. So they have plans that cover vision and dental and hearing, which traditional Medicare does not. And, as I noted earlier, many, though not all Part C plans also fold in prescription drug coverage,

08:55
versus if you have traditional Medicare, this would be separate and be a Part D.

Amy Laburda
So for those Medicare Advantage plans that don't fold in prescription drugs, you can in fact have Medicare Advantage and Part D at the same time, even though you can't have A and B.

Rebecca Pavese
Correct. Part D is the only part that you can have with Part C.

Amy Laburda
OK. And just to go back for a term, just to clarify for those who aren't in the know as much, can you briefly just explain the difference between a flat

09:22
copay and co-insurance and how it works?

Rebecca Pavese
Yeah, so a flat copay is a dollar amount that you're going to pay when you go to a doctor visit or even if you have a hospital copay. So if you go for your… a sick visit at the doctor and you have a $20 copay, you're going to pay $20. That's all you're going to pay. Versus if you have co-insurance, you're going to go and if it costs $50, it would be better, right? Because you'd only pay 20%, which should be $10.

09:47
But if the visit was $200, you'd be out $40 because you're paying 20% of whatever that number is.

Amy Laburda
OK. So it certainly sounds like a lot of Medicare Advantage has an upside in cost for sure. And also just in being a one-stop shop. I know that no one's favorite thing is dealing with a bunch of different insurance paperwork and having to call and, you know, all the things that can happen when you’ve got more than one type of coverage in play. But since we've touched on the upsides,

10:15
what are some of the downsides of a Medicare Advantage plan as opposed to traditional Medicare?

Rebecca Pavese
The biggest con is likely restricted networks. So compared to traditional Medicare, which is accepted almost everywhere that takes medical insurance, Medicare Advantage plans typically have preferred network providers. So depending on your plan, going out of network can be more expensive and may not even be covered at all. And networks are also, [they] could be geographically limited.

10:43
So if you're a snowbird or you travel a lot, you could end up in a situation where you have very good coverage when you're home, but then when you're outside of your network, you have little or no options, which you need to consider, right? If you spend half the year traveling, you don't want to have a great coverage for when you're home, but then it be astronomically expensive when you're out of town.

Amy Laburda
Yeah, you can't always predict health expenses.

Rebecca Pavese
Exactly. And then prior authorizations may be necessary in Medicare Advantage versus traditional

11:12
Medicare.

Amy Laburda
Yeah. And so that's when, for people who are lucky enough not to know, you have to get the insurance to sign off on a procedure or whatever you're pursuing before you can get it, rather than having them deal with it after the fact.

Rebecca Pavese
Correct.

Amy Laburda
OK. Let's also briefly touch on Medigap plans. Why does Medicare Advantage affect Medigap?

Rebecca Pavese
Because you cannot have Medigap with Medicare Advantage. So you can only have Medigap with Parts A and B. But related to that, you can switch to traditional Medicare during open enrollment if you had originally decided to do Part C, Medicare Advantage. But often Medigap purchases are only one-time opportunities. You can't buy them later except in limited circumstances. And there are a few states — Connecticut, Massachusetts and New York — which require [insurers] to offer Medigap insurance when you switch back, but that's not the case for all the states. Minnesota will switch in 2026.

12:10
And then there are some others that do offer it, but it may become prohibitively expensive. I also want to flag that Medigap plans are all standardized by letter categories, with each letter corresponding to a set of standardized benefits. Unlike Medicare Advantage, every Medigap plan within a letter category has the exact same coverage. So the only difference between insurers is what they charge for a particular individual in a particular location. The same is true for all plans that are currently available to new enrollees.

Amy Laburda
So,

12:39
just to quickly clarify, can you explain what a Medigap policy actually is?

Rebecca Pavese
Yeah, so the purpose of a Medigap policy is to help pay the out-of-pocket costs that traditional Medicare doesn't cover. Things like copayments, co-insurance, deductibles.

Amy Laburda
Right, so if you think you're going to get Medigap, it's really a beginning of the Medicare journey opportunity for most people,

13:03
rather than a thing… If you switch back later, you kind of just either have to do without or pay these prohibitively high premiums.

Rebecca Pavese
Correct. If you're interested in Medigap insurance, if that's something that's important to you, you're kind of making the decision there for you right at the beginning that Part A and B, traditional Medicare, is going to be the best option for you from the get-go.

Amy Laburda
OK. So it sounds like we've hit a bingo on the “Something Personal” bingo card, which is there's no one-size-fits-all answer for whether Medicare Advantage plans are right. So

13:32
we sort of inevitably touched on some of these as we went through, but if someone's sitting down to consider, OK, I'm going to sign up, which one should I sign up for? What are some factors, obviously cost, but beyond cost, that they should keep in mind?

Rebecca Pavese
Yeah, so when you're making this decision, like really any decision, you're going to have a list of pros and cons. And so whether you're making this on paper or just having a conversation… But you want to consider your personal health, how your family has — health has been as they've aged.

14:02
Do you, like I mentioned, do you travel a lot? Do you stay home? So you want to kind of look at all these things so you know what features are going to be most important to you when picking a plan. And then the next step would be to compare the available Medicare Advantage plans, if that's something that you think you're going to pursue. So what type of plan? And this kind of comparison is similar to if you were just doing what you had done all your life when you're picking your own medical insurance plans, right? Are they HMOs? Are they PPOs? How restrictive are they? What are their copays?

14:31
What are their out-of-pocket maximums? So those are the same questions you're going to ask yourself when you're choosing medical insurance throughout your life. So that kind of brings you back to, like, what you've done always.

Amy Laburda
So I assume that sort of answers my next question, which is: As a financial professional, if you have a client who's like, hey, I'm coming up on my 65th birthday. I need to think through what we're going to do. The kind of advice you'd give them would be similar with any sort of insurance choice, it sounds like, though obviously there are some mechanisms that make Medicare a little bit different.

Rebecca Pavese 15:01
Correct. The first one, right, is cost, as we've talked about, and that's going to be in anything that we're advising somebody on. And then what are the other features that go into making that decision and a list of what's most important? Because it doesn't always come down to cost.

Amy Laburda
Regular listeners will not be surprised to hear me beating the drum of communication, but say you're helping aging parents or another loved one in your life with this situation. Obviously,

15:28
for some people, it's just purely practical. Like you said, you're going through the factors, you make a pro and con list, no big deal. But I imagine for some people there might be some emotion involved. Do you have any, I guess, sort of broader tips, not specific to Medicare that are just, if you're opening this conversation with someone in your life, ways to be sensitive, ways to listen and keep the sort of channel of communication open?

Rebecca Pavese 15:53
To be thoughtful, right, and to listen and hear what people are saying. And then you'll be able to hear what the most important part or what’s kind of on their mind, and guiding them in making whatever this decision [is]. So if it is more of a financial component, through their beginning conversation, you'll hear, like, they're worried about the cost of insurance. And then you'll be able to guide them in: Is it actual price cost? Or is it [that] they want the security of knowing what their out-of-pocket maximum is going to be? Or they want a fixed number? Or is it just they’re

16:22
completely uneducated, where you need to go back to basics and say, like, here are your plans. This is like the decision that you have to make. So I think it's listening, as always, and then guiding them to where — the area in which they need help with. And then once you're guiding them in that, helping them to how they get that information. Is it, you know, helping them find a broker for insurance? Is it helping them find an online source with, like, actual facts that they can go read? Is it helping them find an article or a podcast so that they can better understand the topic?

Amy Laburda 16:51
That makes sense. And that leads me to my next question. Since you mentioned brokers, I know that there are people who consult professionals, either because they're already working with a financial adviser more broadly and then they can just plug this in, or they go specifically to a broker for this particular question. What are some signs it might be time to look for a professional to help, instead of trying to sort through this data yourself? And if you're looking for a professional, where do you start and what kind of things should you keep an eye out for?

Rebecca Pavese 17:18
Typically at this point, or specifically in the broker area or someone that's selling insurance, it’s: You've already made your decision and now you're just kind of with them. If you didn't decide to go with traditional Medicare, you want someone that is versed in this area [who] can bring you the best plans, because you're going to be limited, necessarily not being able to see the whole universe out there, which is… This is what a broker likely does for a living. So they know all the plans that are out there. They will earn a commission for their service, but they don't work directly with an insurance

17:47
company. So they'll likely give you an array of options. And then you can narrow that down, right? You're at the second level of choice. You know you're going to go for Medicare Advantage, and now you have all these Medicare Advantage plans. And you can see — they'll provide you with the details of all of them, so then you can compare them to make the next choice.

Amy Laburda
And is this a process that's only helpful when you're making that initial choice, if you opt for Medicare Advantage? Or if you're using open enrollment season and you're deciding to switch to Medicare Advantage, is it basically the same process then?

Rebecca Pavese 18:16
It would be basically the same process then, because you're at the next step and want to see a comparison of plans. And then after a broker provides you with that information, you can then take that information to your family or to a trusted adviser, and they can help you analyze the plans in more detail.

Amy Laburda
So, as I mentioned in our opening, we're currently in open enrollment season with this, when this episode releases, which is a time anyone can make changes. And then there are particular

18:43
circumstances that can trigger that opportunity, but those are pretty rare. So since everyone has the same window, if you're going to reach out to a broker or a financial adviser, what's the best timing to do that?

Rebecca Pavese
As a financial advisor who would love to tell people when they should ask for advice or pick, I should say, because typically it's not always ideal, right? People come to you in… a lot of times in crisis mode, and of course you serve them then. But if you can give yourself — or [if]

19:13
you want the best service, or you want someone that has capacity, don't wait, like, as open enrollment period is starting. You can make these decisions early in the year. So evaluate your plans, you know, in the mid — in the summer or even in the spring. That [by the time] you get to time to open enrollment, you already have your decision made. That's when they're going to be the busiest, because people are panicking and like, oh my gosh, I'm up against a deadline. I need to find something. So if you could give a leeway into that advice, it would be helpful.

Amy Laburda
Yeah.

19:39
I think I did mention that Rebecca is the director of tax practice, and I will let you draw your own conclusions about why she feels strongly about timing questions. So we're recording this in the fall of 2025, which means that the One Big Beautiful Bill Act passed this past July. That law's effects on Medicaid have been all over the news for anyone paying attention. It's been one of the main talking points with that law. But did that law affect Medicare in any way?

Rebecca Pavese 20:06
It did not affect Medicare the way it affected Medicaid. It was basically not very relevant in Medicare except to the point at which it restricted coverage to U.S. citizens, green card holders, certain immigrants from Cuba and Haiti, and COFA immigrants from Pacific states with a special relationship to the United States. That's very technical. That's the official list of coverage that had been restricted under the new act. And then existing

20:35
enrollees have a transition period — of those that are being restricted, have a transition period until January 4th of 2027. But these rules will apply immediately for new applicants. And then, just in kind of a broad sense, if the act raises the national debt as much as expected over the next 10 years, you'll have the ongoing issue of Medicare's existing funding challenges.

Amy Laburda
OK, so that shorter list, the people who were previously on Medicare and are now excluded, are people like

21:04
refugees, asylum seekers, people who are here through a recognized channel but have not yet secured a green card?

Rebecca Pavese
Yes.

Amy Laburda
So beyond this law and legislative changes, are there any other changes coming to the world of Medicare Advantage specifically that are on the horizon people should keep in mind?

Rebecca Pavese
Not due to law, but you have rising health care costs that are always affecting these plans.

21:28
And so you always want to be careful of that, right? You're going to see insurers raise out-of-pocket costs for beneficiaries, to pass some of those costs down, or they're going to reduce coverage. And then you run into the possibility that you just may see fewer Medicare Advantage plan [providers] offering them in the future. UnitedHealthcare, for example, which is the largest Medicare Advantage insurer, has said it'll drop plans affecting about 600,000 individuals in 2026. So even if you don't lose coverage outright, you're going to see

21:57
either premiums and deductibles rise, or you're going to see changes to your coverage.

Amy Laburda
And so how can enrollees keep an eye out for this sort of change? How do they know if these are coming down the pike?

Rebecca Pavese
Every insurance company should give you an annual notice of change if there's something changing. That usually arrives in September. So it'll give you time ahead of the open enrollment period to — a limited time — to find a new plan. And then if your insurance stops offering your plan, they may automatically enroll you in another unless you opt out.

22:28
So it's a good time to reconsider your options and make sure that this plan that you've chosen still works for you.

Amy Laburda
Yeah, just because you won't be without coverage doesn't mean that randomly chosen new plan is the right one for you, I assume.

Rebecca Pavese
Exactly.

Amy Laburda
So if an insurer stops offering a plan, or is offering the same plan but under terms that are not as good as the ones when you initially chose it, is that just back to the starting line? You're going through that process we've talked about a couple of times already, of

22:55
evaluating your options, doing your due diligence, all that jazz.

Rebecca Pavese
Yeah, it kind of sends you back to the two questions, right? The broader question: Is Medicare Advantage still correct for you versus traditional Medicare? And then, if you do decide that Medicare Advantage is still right for you, then going the underlying level of picking the actual plan.

Amy Laburda
So when you're comparing Medicare Advantage plans, since traditional Medicare is kind of a take or leave it kind of deal,

23:21
when you're sitting down to look at these plans either with a broker or by yourself, is there any way to kind of compare apples to apples, and make sure that you're getting them sort of in the same ballpark, the way that there are gold, silver and bronze plans post-Affordable Care Act in regular medical insurance?

Rebecca Pavese
The best way that

23:40
to compare something like this, and which would just be a surface level comparison, but you can look at the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, which rates Medicare Advantage plans from one to five stars.

Amy Laburda
OK, so you do at least have a baseline of sort of knowing what ballpark you're in. And then, I imagine, it gets into the nitty gritty of looking up doctors, looking up medications, all of those specific things you talked about earlier.

Rebecca Pavese 24:05
Right. Then you need to say, OK, this works generally or is a well-reviewed plan, but does it work for me? Because it may be great if you're in New York, but it'd be terrible if you're in Florida.

Amy Laburda
For sure. OK, so one sort of bigger picture question: If you're married, how does your spouse play into making Medicare choices? Are you making choices together the way you might've done during your working life? Or is it a kind of

24:28
“you're on your own now” situation? Or is it somewhere in the middle where you should be talking about it, but it's not as directly influential.

Rebecca Pavese
So it's more in the middle, but let's be clear, every spouse has to enroll separately. So you're each going to make individual decisions on what is best for you. And given different health situations for each spouse, you may actually come out to [choose] different options. And it's not like you're buying a family plan where you all need to pick the same thing. You all have your own deadlines.

24:57
You need to enroll separately for your own plans.

Amy Laburda
And we had an entire episode earlier on long-term care insurance, which I'll link, so I won't make you go through that in a more granular way. But while we're here and talking about Medicare, does Medicare usually cover any long-term care expenses? And if not, is that just a goal that people should be saving for or planning for totally separately?

Rebecca Pavese
That is a goal that people should be saving for totally separately.

25:25
Medicare is really only there for short-term situations. So it'll cover short-term recovery after an injury. Like if you fall and you have to go through rehab, Medicare will cover that. The first 20 days are 100%. The next 80 days require a set copayment. And then beyond 100 days, Medicare doesn't pay anything. So this is really short-term recovery, either related to an illness or injury.

Amy Laburda
So it sounds like

25:51
Medicare is pretty foundational for medical care costs if you're a person of that age, but it's not the only thing you need to be thinking about. There's these long-term care costs. There's Medigap, potentially, if you're a person who's on traditional Medicare. Changing plans potentially, if your plan changes. So it sounds like a thing that — as we were talking about “Something Personal” bingo earlier — you cannot set and forget, that you need to be sort of thinking about.

26:18
year to year as your needs change, but also as the offerings change.

Rebecca Pavese
That's correct. You need to constantly reevaluate it, as with anything. But the most important thing is you need to keep the date on your calendar. You cannot forget to apply for Medicare when you're 65, or in that seven month window. So it's three months before or three months after. That's the first thing. Like keep that on your calendar. Even if you don't make a great decision, make a decision, right? Not making any decision would be the worst. But then also

26:46
have that date on your calendar and give yourself time to plan for what would be best for you. And then remembering some key things like limited situations are super expensive to get Medigap. So if Medigap is important to you, then you want to go traditional. And if not, then you can reevaluate your Medicare Advantage. And then that can be reevaluated every year and then switched back to traditional if you want.

Amy Laburda
And so if we're keeping dates on our calendar, I imagine we also want to keep open enrollment. So,

27:15
as you said, it doesn't sneak up on you and you're not scrambling in early December in a given year. I did want to flag too, you mentioned in your Sentinel article for our newsletter that there's a secondary period that people who are on Medicare Advantage can change, just within Medicare Advantage, early in the year. But I know that that can sometimes cause confusion as far as… I know before I worked on it with you, I was like, “I thought open enrollment was early in the year.” But that's Medicare Advantage specifically.

27:43
So I wanted to flag that as well. So that was, in a lot of ways, a really nice summary you gave, but I do like to finish the episode by giving you one last chance, if there's anything we didn't touch on or anything you wanted to revisit or just any final thoughts about people approaching the Medicare choices at that point in their financial life.

Rebecca Pavese
No, just as with all financial planning situations, you just want to be thoughtful about it. Talk to somebody, get advice, just don't make an impulsive decision.

28:13
Take the time to consider all the options and make an educated decision.

Amy Laburda
I think that's always solid advice. Rebecca, thank you so much for sitting down with me to talk through this topic. I hope it gave our listeners some tools for making sense of these questions when [they arise], either for them or for people in their life they're trying to help.

Rebecca Pavese
Great, thanks for having me. I hope it helped.

Amy Laburda 28:34
“Something Personal” is a production of Palisades Hudson Financial Group, a financial planning and investment firm headquartered in South Florida. Our other offices are in Atlanta; Austin; the Portland, Oregon metropolitan area; and the New York City metro area. “Something Personal” is hosted by me: Amy Laburda. Our producers are Ali Elkin and Joseph Ranghelli. Joseph Ranghelli is also our director, editor and mixer. If you enjoyed this podcast, please take a moment to rate and review us wherever you're listening.

29:04
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