Leading With Purpose (podcast)

00:33
Paul is Palisades Hudson's managing vice president, overseeing the entirety of our firm's client service operations. He also continues to work directly with our clients across the country. In addition, he somehow finds time to contribute regularly to our firm's Sentinel newsletter, and he's among the authors of our firm's two books. Paul, thanks so much for joining me again.

Paul Jacobs
Thanks, Amy. Good to be here.

Amy Laburda
And I'm excited to welcome Jonathan Stanley today. Jonathan is an entrepreneur,

00:59
a speaker, an author, and a coach with over 20 years of experience in strategic planning, marketing, and product development. He's the author of “Purposeful Performance: The Secret Mix of Connecting, Leading, and Succeeding,” an Amazon bestseller on strategic management and business leadership. Through consulting, writing, public speaking, and volunteering, Jonathan has shared his insights to help small businesses and startups achieve growth and influential results. Jonathan, welcome to “Something Personal.”

Jonathan Stanley
Great to be here, Amy.

Amy Laburda
So, Jonathan, we found you

01:28
probably the way a lot of people have, which is through a story that went viral online recently. Well, semi recently — we'll call it recently.

Jonathan Stanley
Sure.

Amy Laburda
For listeners who haven't encountered your story themselves, would you mind just quickly summarizing your viral moment that started on TikTok and then sort of spread from there?

Jonathan Stanley
Yeah. So, you know, like many authors, you know, I was at Barnes & Noble doing a book signing and of course, you know, I was really happy to be there. I was… You know, it's a privilege to sit in that

01:57
chair and meet people and talk about your message. And about two o'clock in the afternoon, this four-year-old girl came marching up to me with this very determined look on her face. And she boldly said to me, “I want to be an author when I grow up.” And I thought, wow, that's so cool. And she said, “I just wrote my first book about possums.”

Amy Laburda
Aw.

Jonathan Stanley
I know. And we had this really sort of connection and this special moment together. And her mom walked up and asked me

02:25
if I would sign a book for them. And I said, of course, to who? And she said, Ella, my daughter. So I wrote “To Ella, the greatest gift you have to offer is you.” And so, you know, I sold 12 books that day. I came home to my wife. I was excited. I was like, yeah, this was a great day. I had some great conversations. Paul, you know what it's like. I sold 12 books. It was fantastic. Right? So, you know, the next morning I'm

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I'm on LinkedIn writing a post about Ella, this four-year-old girl being the highlight of my day. Little did I know that Taylor Mae, the mom, had recorded a 10-second video clip that was going viral on TikTok. And so all of a sudden, you know, my house erupts, with my stepdaughter running up the stairs and my wife screaming, “You're going viral on TikTok!” And I was like, what does that actually mean? Right?

03:19
You know, on Saturday morning I had one follower on TikTok. I had an account. It was my biggest fan, my wife. And I opened up the app and it's like, I've got 150,000 followers. And then I refreshed the app a second later, another 5,000, another 5,000. And so it started to spin out of control. And within a couple of days, I had a half a million followers and it just kept climbing and climbing. And of course, you know, the video's been seen over 84 million times.

03:45
I sold tens of thousands of copies of my book. I've got amazing readers from all over the world who are inspired by its message. So I'm just very grateful for the experience. And while all of this was happening, the one thing that was important to me was to really stay grounded in the message of the book, which is we've really got to bring humanity back into the workforce.

Amy Laburda
Yeah, I'm excited to dive in a little more about your book in a minute. But while we're here on the TikTok of it all…

Jonathan Stanley
Yeah.

Amy Laburda 04:14
It was funny because I worked in a Borders many years ago — RIP Borders — and we did author events the same way. And it was so funny to me looking at some of the coverage of your story, where people who had clearly never worked in bookstores were like, “Oh, this is a little sad.” And I was like, 12 books in a day. That's a great outcome. Good job.

Jonathan Stanley
I was excited.

Amy Laburda 04:38
Yeah. So did you, did you find any sort of weird undertones other than that, as far as like the way your story was getting packaged and sort of reduced? Obviously TikTok is this one tiny moment in time, and you've got this whole journey of writing the book, getting there before, this complex person who you are after. Obviously it brought you a lot of good things, but did you sort of run into any friction that way, as far as, like, reducing your story to the easiest digestible way it can be told?

Jonathan Stanley
You know, Amy,

05:07
this is a question I haven't answered, but the truth is that the media spun it in a specific way. So I was doing interviews with the Washington Post and CNN, and I was on the Today Show. And what's interesting is everyone sort of put this sort of media angle on it: lonely author at bookstore. And the truth was that I wasn't lonely. I wanted to be there.

05:33
You know, the message of the book was important to me. And so, you know, I wasn't a lonely author. And of course, you know, the… Taylor's video came from a place of empathy and kindness, for sure. And she, you know, expresses in the video, and I think this is why it went viral, that she felt bad that people were passing by. But the fact is it is a real privilege to sit in that chair, and get to talk about

06:00
your message, and have real conversations with people. So the media spun it the wrong way. And, and the other thing that came following the TikTok moment, as you can imagine, is I had all kinds of people, you know, circling around like vultures. I had sponsorship opportunities, speaking engagement opportunities. You know, I could have capitalized on a lot of cash. And I stepped back and I said, I am not going to do this for the TikTok

06:30
moment. The message of the book is more important than becoming a co-brand to a company I don't believe in. So I left that money on the table, because it was very important for me to stay, you know, focused and authentic to the message of the book.

Amy Laburda
Yeah. I feel like the response that you posted on TikTok was also a really important part of the story. Not to downplay Taylor's lovely video or how cute Ella is because: very cute.

Jonathan Stanley
She's cute.

Amy Laburda 06:59
Why did you think it was important to go on and express that sort of gratitude after the moment that you've had? I know sometimes going viral on the Internet is not as positive an experience as it seems like for you, on net, you took it away.

Jonathan Stanley
You know, like many people… You know, I had grown my company internationally. We did business in over 30 countries around the world. And I was acquired in 2019. I stepped onto the executive team

07:28
and helped them build that business to a strategic exit to a private equity firm. And it was a great experience. But of course, the private equity firm had a different ideology than I did. I was a very purpose-driven leader. And they were a profit-driven company. And so they had different ideas in terms of how they wanted to build the future of the business. And purpose wasn't a part of that future.

07:55
So my position was eliminated. And I went through this, you know, this sort of real funk, this situational depression of not being connected to that anymore. I had lost that identity I had spent so many years building… of being purpose-driven and creating a meaningful difference in others lives. Right? And when that disappears, you're like, what's next? Who am I? You know, what do I want to do with my life? And it was a difficult time for me. And so,

08:24
to get through that, part of that was developing a gratitude mindset. And it's not simple. It's a hard journey, because with gratitude, you really need to feel it. And so when I first started the process of being grateful, it was performative. But as I practiced it over time, it became more genuine. And so I thought, you know, after that TikTok moment, I really did feel this immense gratitude. There were people reaching out to me

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from every corner of the planet. And they were bringing their vulnerability to the table. And that's an honor. I mean, it's an honor and a privilege. I was deeply humbled that people were opening up to me. And I was just so incredibly grateful for that human connection that I felt from all over the world.

Paul Jacobs
Jonathan, I'm interested to hear more about

09:17
what's covered in your book and how it connects to your past experiences. But just one last question on going viral and this whole experience, you know, the kind of overnight success that came with the Internet. Were there any surprises? You mentioned, you know, turning down some easy money because it wasn't really in fitting with your goals. Were there surprises, you know, financial or otherwise with, you know, so much sudden success and, you know, eyeballs on you?

Jonathan Stanley
You know, Paul, one of the things that I…

09:46
I had stepped into this journey of writing a book, and I had sort of envisioned this one and done. It was something that I had always dreamed of doing, from a young age, is writing that book and going through the process as an author. But I thought this would be the only book. And so, you know, the surprise that came from this is that, you know, readers really connected to this in a very deep way. And from a leadership perspective, it was just refreshing to see so many people sharing that message.

10:16
The big surprise for me was that the story is much bigger than purpose-driven workplaces. I have heard from so many people, Paul, that they feel lost and disengaged and can't find meaning in their life. And so many people have reached out to me to say, is this it? Is this all there is? And I began to recognize that this concept of humanity in the workplace is much broader.

10:45
And so through this process, I was able to sign with a top literary agency, William Morris Endeavor. They're an incredible agency. And I'm now writing the second book to address this very notion of people feeling lost in the world, because there's this prevalent loneliness that people are experiencing today. And they just can't seem to get past it. And I want to create the opportunity for them to think deeply about

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how to connect to purpose and meaning in their life.

Amy Laburda
Yeah. So Jonathan, let's back up a little bit, to before your viral moment. You're sitting down, you've had this change in your employment. You're dealing with a little bit of depression around it. And you decide to pursue this earlier dream to write a book. I've shepherded our firm's two books through publication. I know that's no small amount of work to bite off, especially just for yourself. I’ve got a lot of colleagues that I involved in our process.

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So when you sat down, did you have in your mind a calendar, a deadline? Was it “work on it a little every day”? How did you mechanically approach writing your book?

Jonathan Stanley
You know, I sort of… Just like running a company: When I have a very clear goal in mind, then I'm committed. You know, I want to pursue it and reach it. And so I did have a very clear goal in mind that I wanted to write that book and have it done within one year.

12:12
And of course I learned a lot along the way. You know, I wrote the first draft of the book. I was… Paul, you know, you've probably been through this process. I wrote the first draft of the book. I was really excited. You know, I shared the book with my wife and, and, and she's like, “Jonathan, like, get to the point.” I was like, what do you mean get to the point? And she's like, you know, you're just, you're not getting to the point. And so I had to really step back and of course think deeply about,

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you know, how I wanted to re-approach this book. And so it was a process that was, you know, it was hard work. But the end result as, as you know, was a quality book that resonates with people.

Amy Laburda
Yeah. So now that you've taken the time to get to that point, what is purposeful performance about what? What does the book explore?

Jonathan Stanley
Yeah. So the first half of the book is, is about creating

13:08
both internal value and external value for your employees, customers, and community. And the second half of the book is about how to implement that, through a very simple strategic framework. So it's about creating value both inside and outside the organization, and measuring that impact both internally and externally. And then following that through to execution, strategic planning and execution, which is

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a daunting task for many organizations, and they often don't get it right. So I really wanted to show them the way to do it in a very simple way that everyone can understand. And it's very focused on purpose. You know, why do we exist and what's the meaningful change we want to make in the world?

Amy Laburda
Yeah. So it seems that it's, it's in an order that is very thought out, right? You have to think of the purpose first before you get into that actual framework, because

14:06
you don't have a direction, you don't know where you're going yet.

Jonathan Stanley
Right. And a lot of companies think that if they have a clearly defined purpose, that's enough. And it's not. Purpose is simply a direction. It needs to be supported by foundational values that mean something, that are lived within the company. And a lot of companies get that wrong. They just simply post values on the wall and think they've done the work. But it begins with leadership. Leadership has to embody and live those values,

14:36
and make values a part of their company culture on a daily basis.

Amy Laburda
What might that embodiment look like? Do you have, like, an example of a “for instance” for how that might play out?

Jonathan Stanley
From a purpose or values perspective?

Amy Laburda
Oh, either or both, as you'd like to answer.

Jonathan Stanley
Yeah. Well, let's start with values. I think, you know, the thing about values is that you've got to get them inside the company culture from a,

15:05
both a leadership and team perspective. So you've got to think about values and how they're tied to performance. These are both daily and weekly discussions in terms of how am I living and embodying these values, but how am I keeping my team members accountable for living these values as well? So they have to be part of the discussion, right? They have to be celebrated and recognized when team members

15:32
are living in and bonding those values. So if you believe in accountability, then you've got to practice accountability within the organization. And you've got to have conversations about when accountability is not working. You know, just as well as it's working, what's not working. And have those real meaningful discussions on a daily and weekly basis with your team. The second part of this is, you know, what I did was implement an internal gratitude platform,

16:01
which allowed employees to actually talk about a core value that was lived by a team member that they worked with, either directly or cross-functionally. And it was a great way, I mean, it was a great way to support that internal mandate of why those values meant something.

Paul Jacobs
Jonathan, looking at… Reading your book and hearing you talk, reminds me… It makes me think of working at Palisades Hudson. I mean, I've actually been with the company now 23 years, and it's been a long

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journey. It's been a good journey. And there's a lot of other… there are other people at this company who have been here the same amount of time or even longer. My question for you is about retention. So obviously, by implementing these steps, you would expect retention to certainly go up. Do you have thoughts on, you know, goals or what targets should look like in terms of retention? You know, should everyone… Is the goal for people to work at the same job for 23 years? Or is that kind of not realistic? Is there some kind of metric or approach you have to…

17:00
What does success look like in terms of retention?

Jonathan Stanley
Yeah, the world is changing, Paul. And people are not staying at companies as long as they used to. But there's a famous quote by Richard Branson, which I truly believe in, which is: train your employees well enough that they want to stay, right? And promote and give them opportunities [for] growth. But from a retention perspective, it's really important to focus on getting that retention down to less than 5%

17:29
if possible. There's many ways you can do that. You know, one of the reasons that employees are disengaged today is because they don't feel valued, recognized, heard, or seen. And I think it's really important that as company leadership that we create those safe spaces to have those important conversations about where we're winning and where we're losing. Every employee wants to win, but they're not necessarily recognized for those achievements or milestones

18:00
along the way. And so I think it's really important to step back from a leadership perspective and say, what are we doing to celebrate the wins? And how are we recognizing those high-performing employees that are contributing on a weekly and monthly and quarterly basis? And I think the other thing we get wrong, Paul, is that a lot of companies implement SMART goals. And I think SMART goals are dumb. They really are.

18:27
There's nothing smart about SMART goals. You know, 13% of employees surveyed said that SMART goals don't allow them to reach their potential. Because there's the big A, which is “achievable.” Who wants to create a goal that's achievable? And so, you know, I propose an entirely new goal framework, which is MEAN, that allows for the critical thinking to happen. It's about being meaningful, exact, actionable, and necessary.

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You know, what is meaningful and necessary to move our company forward? To fulfill our purpose? And allow that empowerment and decision-making to happen at the team level, not the executive level. And I think what you'll find is that employees want to stretch. They want to learn and grow, and they will be fierce about winning if you empower them to win.

Amy Laburda 19:22
Yeah, I think you've identified a really interesting contrast between achievable and actionable, right? I think one of the things people sometimes are trying to get to with SMART goals is feeling like, OK, we don't want it to stay abstract. We want to make this into action. But, you know, “achievable” leads, I would imagine, to aiming too low sometimes, versus actionable is what can I work on

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right now?

Jonathan Stanley
And necessary, right? What is necessary for us to get to that next point of growth? Because, you know, from an employee perspective, you know, growth is important simply because it's the fuel that allows us to drive the company forward to achieving its purpose. So you know, we like to talk about profitability being important. I think it is important. I just don't think it should be

20:15
the number-one priority. I think if you're focused on purpose as the number-one priority, profit second, what you'll find is that everything you do in terms of that MEAN goal framework, that growth is helping you fulfill that purpose, right? So it's recognizing that the people who are striving to achieve that purpose and that profitability quarter by quarter are also responsible for those outcomes.

Paul Jacobs
This leads into

20:44
another question I had, about remote work. So I assume you're not going to be the biggest fan of remote work. As someone who personally, you know, was in the office for five days a week for many years, and then switched to spending a lot of time working from home, working remotely, but now is back in the office five days a week or close to it. You know, there's a reason we have offices. They’re, you know… Good things can happen in the office and are more likely to happen, I'd say in the office. Of course,

21:11
you know, life happens and people appreciate flexibility. But do you have thoughts on remote work and, you know, is it a killer for this kind of thing or is it just a, you know, minor impediment? Or how do you view working remotely?

Jonathan Stanley
Yeah. So Paul, my response may surprise you. I believe in remote work. I think that in today's world, particularly when you're trying to attract talent, that there… you're going to have remote workers who are going to fit the DNA of your culture.

21:38
You know, the important thing about purpose and living those values is not about whether you're in the office or out of the office. It's about how you're effectively communicating that. So, you know, from an internal perspective, like many organizations, you've got to use all the tools you have at your disposal to share that purpose and those values. And that can happen both in-office and remotely.

22:04
I often use monday.com as a dashboard to create all of the things necessary to support purpose and values, including both information targets, goals, as well as videos to support the vision of the company moving forward. So everyone is aware of where we were and where we were going, but more importantly, why? And that's a question many people miss is, sure, this is where we're going.

22:32
But employees want to understand why are we moving in this direction? And you can do that both in-office and remotely. I think in today's environment, you've got to be flexible, particularly if you want to attract top talent into your organization.

Amy Laburda
In a related question, Jonathan, since Paul has brought up Palisades Hudson, and we're using us as an example: We're a company with a pretty broad reach, but a relatively small head count as these things go. We're under 30 people. So our team...

23:01
People know each other, people all have a pretty hands-on relationship with the rest of their co-workers. Have you found that companies struggle to keep that focus on purpose as they scale upwards? And what are some ways that they can sort of fight the momentum of bigger teams pulling in different directions?

Jonathan Stanley
Yeah, I think that one of the biggest mistakes I made, Amy, when I went through this journey is that, you know, when I went through the purpose and values journey with my company originally, you know, I saw how

23:31
Tony Hsieh was being really successful at Zappos with his 10 core values. And I thought, this is really cool. I want to be Tony Hsieh. I want to build this kind of success. I want to live with these core values. And I went down that road. And I created 10 core values for a company. And I realized that, from an onboarding perspective and a culture perspective, that I had gotten it terribly wrong. And the reason I had failed so hard

24:00
is because I had created these 10 core values with me in mind. They were designed because I deeply believed in these core values. And what I found was, employees really resonated with two or three core values, but they didn't resonate with six or seven of them. And so I realized that it wasn't about quantity. It was about stepping back and really understanding who we were as an organization and what we deeply believed in.

24:28
And I narrowed that list of core values down to four. And so to answer your question, to remove complexity, you've got to simplify. And for us, it was not just about me anymore. It was bringing in the leadership team and having those really important discussions about who we were and why that mattered, not only internally, but externally. And so complexity is easy. We bring complexity into our workplace all the time.

24:58
And we’ve got to focus on removing that clutter and making the message really clear over time. And purpose, of course, is not a destination. It's a fixed point on the horizon you're never going to reach.

Amy Laburda
It's the north on the compass, right?

Jonathan Stanley
Exactly. But it's important because the company deeply understands why purpose matters and how that means serving their customers, their employees, and their community.

25:28
Like you said, it's the North Star.

Paul Jacobs
And that leads into something else I was thinking about in preparation for this. I think that stereotyping of generations is overdone. It's not simple. Not all baby boomers are the same. Not all millennials are the same. But you could have challenges, I suppose, that what's meaningful to one person in one generation might not be to another.

Jonathan Stanley
Right.

Paul Jacobs
So I see what you're saying about simplifying and kind of trying to find what…

25:56
that common ground that is meaningful to everyone. But do you have thoughts on the different generations and kind of just the different approaches they bring to work?

Jonathan Stanley
Yeah, Paul, I'm glad you asked this question. And you said “meaningful to everyone.” And I think that you can't be meaningful to everyone. I think that when you define your purpose and the aspirational change you want to make in the world, you are really sharing your worldview with your potential employees and customers.

26:22
And from both a millennial and particularly Gen Z perspective, particularly Gen Z, more than 75% of Gen Z professionals right now are looking for companies that are purpose-driven and living values that are aligned with what they believe. There's a big shift from a generational perspective, in terms of the value of purpose for Gen Z. And millennials too, from a millennial perspective, they are looking for work that

26:51
allows them to feel like their contribution matters. So purpose is something that's important to them. But based on what that stated purpose is and the social impact you're making through that purpose, you're going to attract top talent into your organizations, because they're actually actively seeking out organizations that align with their beliefs. And so you've got to make that decision, that fundamental decision. What do we believe in? Why do we believe in it?

27:21
And really focus on bringing that kind of talent into your organization, that aligns with both your worldview and the worldview of your customers. And that means that you're going to be intensely focused on those customers and serving those customers well. Everyone else, they don't matter. If they don't share your worldview, they're not your customer.

Amy Laburda
Yeah. And it sounds like in the long term, they're not your employee either.

Jonathan Stanley
Right. And you know,

27:51
we can apply this to a small company or we can look like a well-oiled machine like Target. Target is a great example of a company that's lost its way. When I wrote about Target in “Purposeful Performance,” it was amazing to see at the time that they had over 2,200 products on their shelves that catered to the LGBT markets. And of course,

28:19
what was happening at the time was they were getting a lot of pushback from customers who didn't share that same worldview. So they started removing those products off the shelves. And then they made a public statement that they recognize that they need to not support as much diversity, because they want to broaden their appeal to the market. And guess what? Their stock is now declining. And it's been declining over

28:48
the last two years, simply because they have stepped away from their purpose and their values and what makes Target such a strong retailer. And so I think they've got some figuring out to do in terms of standing firm in their worldview, because it's costing them money. By broadening their market appeal, they're actually losing company value.

Amy Laburda
I mean, we've talked on this podcast —

29:14
enough times that regular listeners are going to laugh about me bringing it up — the fact that there's, in financial planning, not a one-size-fits-all approach, right? Like, your approach is going to be determined by your values and your personal goals. And it sounds like what you're saying is that a lot of businesses, especially bigger ones, are tempted by that fantasy that, like, we can make an approach that will appeal to everyone. And that's just not any truer in business than it is in personal finance, where you need the goal first.

Jonathan Stanley 29:44
Exactly. And you know, your customers, right? They come to you because you have created trust. And trust is the currency of every great organization. And trust starts internally and moves externally. And that's how you build a profitable business, is by building, you know… providing meaningful products and services and creating that trust over time.

Amy Laburda 30:13
We've talked about goals in a few ways a bit here, and I'm just curious, when you sat down to write “Purposeful Performance,” obviously you didn't know that the lightning strike of virality was coming, but what was your goal with the book? What did success look like to you when you sat down to create it?

Jonathan Stanley
Yeah, I always said, Amy, that when I began this journey that the success of this book was touching one person, changing one person's life. And I deeply felt that. I just wanted to touch

30:43
one person and make a difference in one person's life. If they could walk into work and change company culture so that everyone felt valued, seen and heard, then that was a big win for me. I wrote that book to change that one person's life.

Amy Laburda
I don't know if this is public yet, so you can tell me no, if it's not. But what, with your next book would you like to achieve? Is it [the] same goal? Have you shifted at all?

Jonathan Stanley 31:09
Yeah, I mean, my goal is shifted with this next book. I do have some insight that I was able to change more than one person's life. So I really do want… The goal for this book is really to help readers become more deeply known to themselves. And what's really interesting, Amy, is I've been on speaking engagements, and I talk about purpose and values, and so many people walk up to me. I was just in Lake Placid speaking

31:38
and I had several people walk up to me, both millennials and Gen Z, who said, I've never really thought about me. I've never thought about my purpose. I've never thought about my values. Of course, we all have values. We bring our values into work every single day. But we don't deeply think about who we are. What do we stand for? What are we passionate about? What is the meaningful difference that we can make as individuals in people's lives every day?

32:07
We don't have these internal discussions. And so it's really… The second book is about helping people in that journey of self, because we're all so constantly stuck in overwhelming responsibilities, daily life, and we're just not pausing. And what we're neglecting in the process is the most important person in our life, which is you, Amy. And you, Paul. You know, the most important person in your life is you.

32:37
And so you've got to take that time to do that self-discovery, and really understand what's important to you, and how you can contribute both meaning at home and in your professional life.

Paul Jacobs
I had a question about retirement actually, which is something we help a lot of clients with, with planning for the future.

33:01
Retirement can go different ways for different people, right? Some people, it can be kind of a smooth transition. It can be just the next stage of life. It can be great. It can be everything… You know, they can plan ahead and make it exactly the way they want it. And it can be a wonderful stage of life. For other people, it can be abrupt. They don't have a plan. It can be depressing and just a really rough transition. You know, something that occurred to me when thinking about values:

33:27
If someone is so… If there's a company that is so, you know… Where work is so meaningful and people are so on the same page, retirement again, could be abrupt and very difficult. Do you have thoughts on retirement and, you know, just things to watch out for? Things that can make the process better rather than worse?

Jonathan Stanley
Yeah, Paul, you know, really important question. And I am the candidate that falls into “really rough.”

33:58
For me, the mistake I made, I really believe, in what I did as both a CEO and a chief experience officer driving purpose at work and making a meaningful difference. But when that disappeared, the person that I had lost in the process was me. And it took me a full year to really get back to

34:26
what was meaningful to me. And the big lesson in all of this was that so much of my identity was wrapped up in my work that I had lost myself in the process. And I know that sounds kind of strange, but the most important advice I can give anybody as it relates to retirement and financial planning is that you've got to start early, number one,

34:55
from a financial planning perspective. I know it's a discussion we don't want to have. But starting early is so critically important, because it makes the down road such an easier path, right? If you're starting in your 50s, the road is much harder than starting in your 20s. But when you finally get to retirement, the most important work you can do is understand who you are, what you value, what's meaningful in your life.

35:23
And it's separating that from your work identity. Work is not who you are. It doesn't define you as an individual, and you've got to do the work to really find out what fulfills you outside of work. And work had consumed me for so long that that was everything that I had sort of wrapped myself in. And that was a big mistake because I had to go through

35:52
the entire retooling of understanding who I was and what was valuable to me personally. And that included defining my purpose and my values, and understanding what authenticity really means, because we get authenticity wrong most of the time. And living that, right? And living with gratitude is also important. So from a retirement perspective, really begin to go on that journey and understand

36:21
what's meaningful to you. And you know, we all go down this road of striving for happiness, but research has shown those who seek happiness, the science is there, live unhappier lives. So you've got to understand who you are and what's valuable to you, because there's meaning that can be found in your life in all kinds of places.

Amy Laburda
I'd love to circle back to, you just mentioned in passing, that we often get authenticity wrong.

36:49
In what ways do you observe that that happens for people?

Jonathan Stanley
Yeah, so we think authenticity is about being real, right? We sort of put it on a pedestal of being our most honest selves, but you can be dishonest and still be authentic, number one. And the other thing is authenticity… You know, we've gotten into this culture of what I call radical candor. And it's often a knee-jerk reaction to what you think you firmly believe, right? And we create this friction

37:19
that says to you, Amy, well, I'm just being real. I'm just being honest. But authenticity is about actually living in alignment with your beliefs, motives, personality traits, and emotional landscape. That's what authenticity is. So if you and I are getting into a discussion where we have opposing views, and I'm moving into that space of what we think is authenticity or realness with radical candor, I'm

37:48
typically motivated by a completely emotional self, not an authentic self. So we can be frustrated at work. And we can send a spiteful text. We might be being real in the moment, but are we being authentic? Are we being true to who we are as individuals? And in many cases, we're not. So there's this story I like to tell of Miep Gies, who was [Otto Frank]'s assistant in Nazi-occupied Amsterdam.

38:17
And of course, you know, she was hiding eight Jewish souls in Frank's [business], one of them being Anne Frank, right? And the Nazis would, of course, come knocking at the door and saying, do you have any Jews in your home? And she would say, “No, I don't.” Right? She was using necessary deception because she was being deeply authentic to what she believed, right? Which is every human matters. So she was being authentic

38:46
while being dishonest. So there are those occasions where, you know, dishonesty can also mean authenticity.

Amy Laburda
To sort of build on Paul's question about finding who you are outside of work: When you were thrown into that situation against your will, what else did you find that you built on? I imagine there was some trial and error in the early days, but where else did you sort of widen your aperture to?

Jonathan Stanley
Yeah. So what I did was I created purpose-

39:14
driven frameworks for companies. And so I applied those same frameworks to my personal life. And so I started tweaking them so they were more individualized. But what it did was it really made me sit back and examine what was really motivating me as a human being to want to go out and make a difference in the world. And that answer came to me, you know: I exist to help people connect to purpose so they can wake up

39:43
feeling inspired about making a difference every single day. And so that is my purpose. Values was a… you know, going through that process of identifying values was something that I had to think deeply about because, we can't get good at values unless we pick, you know, one or two that we want to live by on a daily basis. It's like the workplace, right? If we have too many goals, we'll never achieve any of them. So I had to think deeply about what was

40:13
most important to me and why it mattered from a values perspective. And the second part of this is that, what we often don't do, and I'm sure you both can relate to this, is practice. How often do we say, OK, I believe in accountability, but I'm going to practice accountability on a daily basis. I'm going to be acutely aware of accountability, and I'm going to practice this at both home and work.

40:42
And that means, you know, being in those uncomfortable discussions with your partner at home and claiming that accountability, right, when it needs to be claimed. And doing it at work as well. Instead of sending that email that says, sorry, you know, got crushed under a number of other deadlines, couldn't meet yours, you know, be accountable for not meeting that deadline and expressing that apology with empathy.

Amy Laburda
As a recovering perfectionist, I deeply relate to your latter example, where

41:11
you know, over time at work, I've realized that being honest and upfront is actually the more helpful value. Rather than “I will just never make a mistake,” which I think early-20s work me was like, that's a great strategy. Nothing can go wrong with this.

Jonathan Stanley
Right. Exactly. Yeah. If you look at any great artist, if you look at any great professional baseball player or, you know, we look at the

41:37
a genius in the cellist of the symphony, or we look at the painter whose art is just brilliant and fascinating. Well, guess what? You know what they did? They practiced, and they practiced a lot. And if we want to get good at anything in our life, we've got to practice it over and over.

Amy Laburda
Yeah, Paul, we talked last season a little bit about your history with volunteering,

41:58
which, it occurs to me, fits in kind of well with this framework we're talking about, as far as practicing things that matter to you. Is that a thing that… does that connection also make sense to you, or am I reaching a little bit here?

Paul Jacobs
Yeah, this conversation has me thinking about the episode we did on nonprofit work and volunteering. And it raises another question, Jonathan, about just kind of the difference in approaches that may be necessary at times in the

42:25
for-profit versus not-for-profit world. I always say that, just, you can have the same set of circumstances and a different correct answer with a nonprofit than a for-profit. It seems like a lot of what we talked about today could certainly fit in nicely, especially with the not-for-profit world, where if the goal is not to maximize profits, you have to find another purpose to continue and to grow in other ways. So I believe you work with both nonprofits and for-profits. Do you have thoughts on

42:55
what the differences can be, with the correct advice or how to structure things with a nonprofit versus a for-profit?

Jonathan Stanley
I want to address the for-profit model for a second, simply because, Paul, the research is very clear. I think that a lot of companies who believe that they are profit-focused instead of purpose-driven believe that they're going to be more successful in creating long-term shareholder value.

43:24
In fact, it's the opposite. If you look at the research of purpose-driven companies and their performance compared to non-purpose-driven companies, what you'll find is that they're three times more profitable. Their value creation is 74% higher over time. They have 75% higher internal productivity and three times the profit, from a profit center perspective. And they have

43:52
56% lower retention as well. And so if you look at purpose-driven organizations versus profit-driven organizations, what you'll find is, across every single key metric, purpose-driven companies outperform non-purpose-driven companies across every key metric, including profitability. So I think that the challenge that we face is that CEOs and entrepreneurs are missing

44:22
this opportunity. They are missing the opportunity to really focus on bringing purpose and people to the center of their model and putting purpose at the center of core strategy to out-compete and differentiate in the marketplace. People who are profit-centric, unfortunately, miss the boat on this.

Amy Laburda
So Jonathan, we’re coming

44:47
a little bit to the end of our time. We've mentioned your second book, upcoming, but are there any exciting new projects on the horizon for you? I think you mentioned before we got on mic that you're recording an audiobook these days.

Jonathan Stanley
Yeah. So I was, you know… It's been really amazing. I've been working with Blackstone Publishing. They acquired the audiobook. And so I spent the last week in the studio. The audio book releases December 2nd. It's only available on Audible.

45:14
And I'm just really excited about that next step in the journey. And of course, right now I'm just focused on speaking engagements and writing this next book.

Amy Laburda
Delightful. Well, that'll be out already by the time this episode releases. So I'll throw a link in our show notes.

Jonathan Stanley
Awesome.

Amy Laburda
So returning listeners know I always like to wrap up an episode by giving our guests the last word. Since Paul has been on before, he knew this was coming. So I'll put him on the spot first.

45:40
Paul, did you have any last questions for Jonathan or any thoughts about what we've discussed today to leave us on?

Paul Jacobs
This has been an eye-opening conversation. So Jonathan, I want to thank you for joining us today. I think where my mind is going is I think that for myself, for clients, for people in my life, I think a question that comes up a lot is, you know, is the grass greener on the other side? If you make a change, will it be better or are you just kind of fooling yourself and are you in a good situation already? And if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

46:09
I feel fortunate that I've been with the same company [for] over 20 years. There definitely are common values at Palisades Hudson. There's a lot of shared purpose, and that just keeps me coming back for more. For other people, though, this is a helpful way, I think, to understand if things are not going well, why? A lot of times the grass isn't greener on the other side, but a lot of time, it is.

46:39
You know, I guess, you know, when I'm talking to other people and if I'm hearing that things are not going well, it's just a slog and, you know, just kind of the wrong priorities are in place. Or really, like you're saying, it's not a good fit. It's just not the place for you. It may be the right place for someone else, but not for you. Then, yes, sometimes the 100 percent, the right answer is go, you know, get out of there, find a place that you will be happy and that will be a better fit for you.

Jonathan Stanley 47:06
100%, Paul, I absolutely agree. And I think it's a mutual relationship. From a company perspective, it's important to create value both internally and externally. And sometimes from an onboarding and recruiting process, we get it wrong. We're not perfect. And so if you've got an employee that's not happy at work,

47:32
then, two things. Number one, I would encourage the employee to find a place where they can find that happiness. I'm hoping that it's not because of a toxic work culture. It's just a misalignment of what the company believes in and what the employee believes in. That misalignment happens. But it's really important that people find companies where they feel valued, seen and heard, where they feel their contribution matters.

48:02
And you're not going to find that perfect fit, necessarily, from day one.

Amy Laburda
Wonderful. Well, Jonathan, I'll hand the mic metaphorically to you to finish us up today. Was there anything we didn't touch on that you wanted to circle back to or just any final thoughts to leave our listeners with today?

Jonathan Stanley
Yeah. I think that one of the most underrated skills we have as leaders is listening. And I know that sounds kind of strange. We're on a podcast and people are going to listen, but

48:31
you know, I think that we've got to focus on bringing that presence, from a leadership perspective, into work and really practice that act of listening and ensuring people feel valued, heard and seen. And I think that when leaders focus on that act of listening, what they'll find over time is they're going to gain both greater respect and earn trust. And so I think that while it's one of the most underrated skills, I would encourage everyone

49:00
to pause and think about how they're active listening and whether or not they're checking their phone when they are in a discussion, right? So let's just keep practicing listening, and doing courageous and important things in the workplace.

Amy Laburda
Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for sitting down with me today, both of you. It was wonderful to get a chance to talk about the power of kindness and purpose. And I hope this was a really enriching conversation for our listeners, but it certainly was for me.

Jonathan Stanley
Awesome. That was great. Thank you both.

Amy Laburda 49:31
“Something Personal” is a production of Palisades Hudson Financial Group, a financial planning and investment firm headquartered in South Florida. Our other offices are in Atlanta; Austin; the Portland, Oregon metropolitan area; and the New York City metro area. “Something Personal” is hosted by me: Amy Laburda. Our producers are Ali Elkin and Joseph Ranghelli. Joseph Ranghelli is also our director, editor and mixer. If you enjoyed this podcast, please take a moment to rate and review us wherever you're listening.

50:01
It's a simple way to help new listeners find the show, and we really do appreciate it. Thank you.