Lessons On Collaboration From An Intimacy Professional (Podcast)

00:36
Welcome back to the podcast, Larry.

Larry Elkin
Thanks, Amy.

Amy Laburda
And we are excited to welcome Nicole Perry today. Nicole is an intimacy director, intimacy coordinator, and dance choreographer. She holds an MFA in interdisciplinary arts, is a certified intimacy director and certified intimacy coordinator with Intimacy Professionals Education Collective, and is a certified Laban/Bartenieff Movement Analyst.

00:59
She has worked as an artist and an educator in Florida and beyond, and has contributed to productions including “Dexter: Original Sin,” the Netflix series “Pulse,” the film “Jagged Mind,” and many, many others. Nicole, thank you so much for joining us today.

Nicole Perry
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to talk with you both.

Amy Laburda
So, Nicole, I actually had to leave out a lot from your introduction. You are a busy, busy person, and I'm sure we'll get to a lot of that later in the conversation, and

01:26
we'll certainly link to some more information about you in our show notes for people who are interested. But let's just begin at the beginning. Can you talk a little bit about how you got into the arts and dance, and a little bit about your background?

Nicole Perry
Sure. I started dancing what is considered late for a dancer, in that I was in middle school. So for most

01:48
women who dance, they start when they are very young, for the most part, if it's going to be a career. So I started very late as a middle schooler, but just really wanted to dance. But I started earlier than that as a musician. And I have two undergraduate degrees: one in dance and one in classical piano. So I started my “artist life” actually in elementary school as a pianist that I still continue to play, just not as much as I did.

02:17
My family, my father's side of the family, is very musical and really encouraged music. But I found really a home in dance, that I just felt like it was such an expressive place and a place where I could be creative as my own self and not for… Not interpreting someone else's work, but really bringing my own thoughts and ideas to the creative process. So

02:42
college did both, couldn't give it up, right? I had to do both music and dance. And then even my graduate degree that I got — actually not that long ago, I was 40 when I graduated with my MFA. It's still interdisciplinary arts, but was a double MFA in theater and dance, because that's where I spend most of my professional life now, is in theater. So I,

03:02
I'm always looking for those intersections of creative life and how a skill in one area complements or builds a skill in another. But I transitioned all of that work into intimacy work, actually when I was teaching, and I was teaching theater and dance in a private school and I was choreographing the musical. And the director, like so many directors, when we got to the kiss was just like, “And then they'll kiss!” But then moved right along,

03:30
and didn't actually set it and didn't really say any more than that. And one of the students was extremely stressed out about it, because they had never had a kiss in real life. And they were… So this was going to be their first kiss period, and they didn't know how to do it, and they might do it wrong. And then if they did it wrong, there was the double pressure of, like, “Oh my gosh, my classmates are going to think I'm a weirdo because I don't know how to do this. And the show is going to be bad if I do it wrong.”

03:59
And that's so much pressure for a high school student.

Amy Laburda
Yeah, imagining having your first kiss while lots of people are looking at you feels like a lot to take on.

Nicole Perry
Yeah, yeah. That's not fair. That's not anyone's ideal situation. And so the students came to me as the choreographer, and they were like, “Can you choreograph this kiss so we know what we're doing?” And I was like, “Huh, what a thought.” And especially,

04:27
in, like, educational theater where we're teaching them everything, right? We're like, sit here, stand now, walk over there. This is what this means. We're teaching you how to interpret text as well. And I was like, it's so weird that we're not teaching this as a skill. And we're not teaching it as a skill to minors, because maybe we shouldn't teach that to minors.

04:49
So I'm, like, Googling how do you teach teenagers to kiss, which is a really terrible thing to Google on your school computer. Don't recommend that at all. And [I] discovered at the time Intimacy Directors International, and they were doing a training a few months later in St. Petersburg that I was like “I’ve got to go to this. I’ve got to know this.” So I took a training with them, and I took a training with Theatrical Intimacy Education. And this was 2017, so this was...

05:19
this was early in the movement. So I took courses with both of those folks and just felt like, oh my gosh, this is a place where I can use my movement skills as a choreographer. And part of what I love about education is making the world better. We send students out with new ideas and with skills to help make the world that we all want to live in. And I was like, that's what this work does. That's what intimacy work does:

05:46
It makes a world that I want to live in, as a collaborator, where people are respected and people are heard and people are valued as people, not just as capitalistic cogs and wheels. So I really… I was like, I'm all in. I am all in for this. And I have been ever since.

Amy Laburda
A quick terminology note: As I mentioned in your bio, you're both an intimacy director and an intimacy coordinator. So for those of us who aren't in the know, what's the difference? What's the overlap?

06:16
What do both of those mean?

Nicole Perry
Yeah. There's people who use either word to mean either thing. So for me, an intimacy director works in live performance, like theater, opera, dance. An intimacy coordinator works in recorded projects, like TV and film. And for me, those titles belong that way, mainly because of pay equity. This is a newer role.

06:44
But there have been, in theater, movement directors and fight directors. And so if I'm called an intimacy director, then they know what tier of credit to give me, about what my pay scale should be, things like that. When I use an intimacy coordinator on a film set, then I'm a department head. Coordinators are department heads. And it gives that stunt coordinator, which is an existing role that people recognize,

07:11
vibe, that then they can look at that and be like, oh, we should treat this in a similar way. So to me, holding those titles separately and having that specificity is much more about professional courtesy and pay equity than it is about, like, it's just a title that we've made up. But it is; it's just a title that we've made up. And I am a staff member at

07:35
the Intimacy Professionals Education Collective, where we use the term intimacy professional to kind of cover all of that.

Amy Laburda
So you're doing pretty similar things, but it's about letting people in the worlds that you're working in sort of understand where you fit in their universe.

Nicole Perry
Yes, yes.

Amy Laburda
OK. Cool.

Larry Elkin
Nicole, quick side note here just for

07:54
audience that isn't Floridian, when you say you went to study in St. Petersburg, you were probably not referencing Russia. You were referencing the city in Florida.

Nicole Perry
For sure, for sure.

Larry Elkin
We are… And everyone should know that I got to meet you and know you through Film Florida. And I've been wanting to have this conversation for years, since we met. You kind of jumped right into something that Amy and I talked about a little bit ahead of the podcast, which is you work

08:22
professionally in these levels and roles, but you came to it through high school. And I would imagine, you'll correct me if I'm wrong, that the high school theater teacher is wearing all these different hats, which is probably where this started. And I had wondered aloud with Amy, you know, don't they need this at the non-professional, or community theater level? For you, that was actually the entry point to this work. But

08:52
is this common? Are there people recognizing, as you did, that they need to have this knowledge, and skill, and degree of sensitivity?

Nicole Perry
I think so. I hope so. I don't teach any longer in a formal education setting. I run a lot of workshops for faculty. So actually, this fall, I've already done three workshops for different universities in the state of Florida, and their theater and dance programs, both their students and their faculty,

09:20
and talking about this work. Because education, I still believe, is where we change the world and where we make the world that we want to live in, and that we want our children or our children's children to be able to live in too. And so I think education is where that starts. And educational theater and educational dance is where so many folks learn what is normal

09:47
or what is status quo, or what is acceptable. And for a very long time, that has been abuse and harm and “tough love” that's actually just abuse and harm. But they call it education instead. And we really do need these things at that level. And there is a challenge at the middle school, high school level, because of working with minors, there is a challenge in bringing this work there in that… mainly don't.

10:16
You shouldn't have minors doing intimate acts. And to me, that includes kissing. I would not have minors kiss, now, at this point in my career. I started into this pathway because minors came to me because they were told to kiss, right? And they were like, help. But there are also so many interesting ways to tell that story besides a kiss. I always say this: A kiss is easy.

10:43
Like everybody kind of expects it. Like you know when it's coming. My sister loves to watch Hallmark movies. I was with her last week and we were watching a Hallmark movie. And she was sitting there and then she was like, and then they kiss. And then they do, right? Like you know it's coming most of the time. You can feel that. So it's like, when it's not a kiss, that's actually where I get to be creative, and where I might have to think of something different or a different choice or a different way to tell the story. Like, not doing the easy thing is really interesting.

11:13
I wish more high school and college places were having this conversation and also really examining the power dynamics that are inherent in the work. Because, so far, a lot of the solution has been like, oh, we'll just get the teacher this training, which is great. More training is great for everybody all the time, but that doesn't actually diffuse the power dynamic. Which is part of why this role started in the first place, is that it's really hard for actors

11:43
at any level to say no to the director, or to say to the director, I have a question about this or I'm concerned about this or I feel weird about this, when the director is holding their grade in a high school or college level, or

12:01
their paycheck in an indie film level, or their ability to work again in the, like, SAG [Screen Actors Guild] level, right? It's really hard for folks to be able to say no to someone who holds power over them and to be able to say no in a way that they feel like is professionally sustainable. And that's part of why this work was created. Like, yes, it's physical storytelling and that part of it is really, really important, the choreography, but it's also this, like, outside person to whom

12:31
we invite “no.” And we invite “I have questions.” And in a way that's still really collaborative, I hope, but that folks feel like they're not jeopardizing their own longevity in the work. And I don't think a lot of high schools and colleges have had that internal reflection yet, because they are sending their teachers to get training. And it's like, great, but you haven't done anything about the power dynamic, and it's still going to be really hard for students to do that.

Amy Laburda 13:01
Well, and I feel like your point about Hallmark movies, you also have sort of a cultural momentum sometimes in that, for example, a lot of high schools do Shakespeare. I get it. It's in the public domain. But if you're staging “Romeo and Juliet” with high schoolers, for example, there might be a feeling like, oh, I can't ask them not to kiss. It's “Romeo and Juliet”. What are we even doing here? So you don't make space, necessarily, for those kind of questions. Even if you're working with someone you trust, if you're working with a director you trust,

13:30
you might still have internalized narratives of there's only one way to do this. This is just how this piece is. So it feels like you being there, or having someone in your role there, might even just open the door a little bit for asking those questions in the first place.

Larry Elkin
Well, I have a question for Nicole about that. And we actually once touched on this in one of our conversations, in that directing, inherently, commands and requires a degree of power. And I have kind of a funny

13:58
story that then leads into the more serious question. My wife and I were babysitting two of our grandsons last week, and the older one, the kindergartner, at five, has a picture book bio of Steven Spielberg, and he will tell you he wants to be a director when he grows up. And I take him seriously at it. Until proven otherwise, I'm taking him at his word. So we're reading stories, not the Spielberg biography, and he needs some more bedtime milk. He goes downstairs

14:27
and returns with his grandmother, my wife. And he says, “Now you're going to smoochie kiss.” So, you know, I'll take it where I get it and you know, we “smoochie kiss,” and grandma goes back downstairs and the evening goes on. So yes, he's got the directing part down already. But for somebody, whether it's the actor, the grandfather, the intimacy coordinator,

14:57
to intercede, it seems as if the director has to, willingly or otherwise, yield some of that power to another party. And I think at least when we had this conversation, which was earlier in the appreciation of the role and significance of intimacy coordination, what I recall you saying was that on some sets, your input is sought and welcomed, and at others, you're there because it's in somebody's contract, but you're not necessarily

15:27
willingly consulted. Is that still the case? Is it evolving? How's… Are directors recognizing, sort of the way I do as running a financial firm, where I have a compliance officer who derives her power from me, but if I don't listen to what she tells me, I'm an idiot. She's there to protect me.

Nicole Perry 15:48
Yeah, it's so funny that you bring that up, because I was actually texting with some colleagues this morning, because one of our counterpart organizations in Canada… We all do what's called an intimacy breakdown, where we get the script and we kind of pull out the moments that we're like, this is where I could be useful. SAG says an intimacy coordinator is recommended for scenes of nudity and simulated sex. They don't

16:12
make you get one, and it's just a recommendation. But there are also a ton of other places where I can be really useful, like “smoochie kisses” and passionate making out scenes and a shower scene, where maybe it's not sexual but someone is undressed, and things like that. I can be really helpful in those times. So we call them intimacy breakdowns. But we have a counterpart organization in Canada that calls them “risk assessments.” And I was like,

16:39
dang, I want to use that word. Like, that's what I'm calling mine for from now on, is risk assessments. Because it is, like, these are spots that could be risky, either to the actor or to the production, that some extra support could be helpful. But to the question, is there still pushback? I mean, sure. Like, there are still people. Those are the headlines that get the most attention, right? Of, like, so and so says the intimacy coordinator was useless or whatever. Like so and so says I would never, because I don't want it.

17:07
Like, fine. There's always people whose creative process is theirs and not an expansive, collaborative one. But I do have to say, for the most part, the folks that I have worked with in the past, especially in the past year, have been extremely collaborative. And I had the pleasure of working on “M.I.A.” that filmed here in South Florida all spring and summer.

17:36
And it was an episodic series that had a different director for every block. And every director on that show was a fabulous collaborator in different ways. But just really understanding of what the role is and what the role could bring to them and how they wanted to utilize the role, which is also great. And I never had to fight for my existence. And I've still had a

18:03
place in the past year where they sat me in a chair in the hallway with a monitor and they were like, don't move. So you know.

Amy Laburda
On that note, you bring up some of the media coverage. I'm sure for people like me who are big film fans, immediately you think about “Anora,” which won Best Picture last year and very famously in the news — For the people who are not as big film fans, star Mikey Madison

18:27
in an interview said that she was offered an intimacy coordinator, and she and one of her co-stars decided to decline it. She cited mainly going faster, making it a more streamlined set. B But it created a lot of discussion, I think in a lot of corners, about what an intimacy coordinators is for. If only the star needs it, because if you haven't seen the film, there are a lot of exotic dance scenes that involve people with smaller or nonspeaking roles.

18:54
So I just wondered, A, am I the seven millionth person to ask you about this situation? And B, if there were any sort of learning moments you felt from that dialogue and that sort of public scrutiny that came up for you?

Nicole Perry
Yeah, it is a great example, because it did get a lot of coverage and create a lot of conversation. And I think what it's brought up that's really important to remember is that the intimacy coordinator or the intimacy director, depending on the setting, is not

19:22
just there for the star. There are a couple of times that I've really been there almost more for the stand-ins, because they're having to hold that position for a really long time. And that's their job, to just sit there in that awkward position. And sometimes it's more about providing them with the props to be comfortable and feel safe, or someone to just be like, hey, this is starting to get really too much. Can we take a break? For them to be able to say that, because stand-ins especially have

19:51
very little power, or feel like they have very little power, often, on set. So there's that. There's the crew that, even if they know we're doing this scene today, may or may not always know the content or the level of the content, particularly if it is sensitive content that might be traumatic

20:09
or activating for someone. To just be like, hey, I'm here if anybody needs anything, which might also be like, I need to step away from this. But in terms of going faster, the truth is I actually think intimacy coordinators make things go faster, because we usually advocate for a rehearsal. And on a film set, we don't always get a rehearsal. There's usually a read through, but there's not always rehearsing time.

20:37
And we always advocate for a rehearsal, because then people get to actually put their bodies in places, and we realize how bodies fit together or don't fit together. And then we're like, oh, we need this, that, and the other. And we're able to shoot things actually much more quickly and much more confidently, because people also know what to expect. And there's not those questions of like, how long is this kiss? Who breaks the kiss?

21:03
We said that we're undressing in this scene, but is it shirt and then pants or pants and then shirt? We've dealt with all of that ahead of time. So it takes more time, maybe, upfront, but it actually takes less time in your shooting day, which I think is very useful. So we're there for more than the star, when we are utilized properly. And we actually make it go faster, or we at least get

21:30
better results for the time that we've put in.

Larry Elkin
Well, apropos of that point and sticking with “Anora” for a moment — “Anora” and making things go faster and the role that the intimacy coordinator plays for others on the set beside the star. One place that really jumped out at me as wondering how did they do that and address all the sensitivities here, was the

21:58
big, 25-minute fight scene between the lead character and someone who is definitely not her love interest. I read something to the effect that that 25-minute scene took 10 days for them to film. And yeah, I can see why, you know, if you've ever seen that scene. So, you know, in a project like “Anora,” the decision not to have an intimacy coordinator seems to have been made by

22:27
the star, Mikey Madison, and the director and writer, Sean Baker, who worked together on the project for a long time before filming ever started. But you wonder, well, what about the others on the set? Just for their own protection, to not feel that they inadvertently did something wrong or that's going to be perceived to be wrong. Again, from my kind of finance point of view, how do the

22:54
people who finance the film and insure the film and bond the film feel about not having an intimacy coordinator? You would think that, at some point, either the insurers and financiers are going to start demanding one anyway, even if she's made to just sit on a chair and not move. Or the regulators are going to come in, state legislators are going to come in, and say that at least certain situations and projects require it.

23:23
What are you seeing in your professional life about the trends in that direction?

Nicole Perry
There are definitely some times that I get called in for things as a CYA, right? That I am there for us to say, oh, because of the age difference between these actors… It's not a minor, but they're playing a minor, and so we're going to have the intimacy coordinator, even though they're “just kissing”

23:50
or whatever. There are times that I get called for that. I think it's smart. I have a nice SAG daily rate that I base off of a stunt coordinator rate, but I'm still cheaper than a lawsuit, I'm certain. So I think it's smart. I think there is movement towards having

24:17
intimacy coordinators not just recommended but required for certain scenes. And I feel both ways about that, in that, like, I think it's smart. And I think it's smart to not have it be on someone who maybe doesn't have as much power to have to ask for it. Because that's often what happens is, like, that's written into the SAG's wording as well as like, “or if an actor asks for it.” Well, an actor shouldn't have to ask to be safe at work, right? They should be safe at work.

24:47
So I can see how having it required really supports that. And I also appreciate the fact that having it being recommended means that when folks call me, they've recognized my worth, either as a CYA and they're like, well, this is just a financial investment that we're making upfront to avoid penalties in the future, right? Or as the part of the creative process that they're like, yes, this is something that we want. So I also appreciate that not having it be required makes me feel wanted.

25:17
So I don't know. I don't know which way is going to go. This is still such a new field. We're not even 10 years old yet as a profession. The first credited intimacy director was 2017 at the Stratford Festival in Canada on “The Bacchae.” And the first credited intimacy coordinator was at HBO in 2018. So we're not even 10 years old yet. And there's so much learning we're doing as an industry as a whole

25:45
in entertainment about how to use this role efficiently and well, and what it really means to disrupt power. And I think about that often, as one of the only folks who works in Florida regularly, and especially in theater. I've developed more power than maybe I want, simply by virtue of working a lot

26:08
and working a lot of places, and working with a lot of people. They'll be like, oh, well, Nicole knows that person really well because they've worked together. And now I have a power dynamic that I didn't have before. So.

Larry Elkin
In what way is that a problem where the intimacy expert has too much power in connection with a project?

Nicole Perry
If someone feels like they can't say no. Because then they can't work again, because I'm friends with the director, because we've worked together a million times. Or

26:37
you know, like if that happens. And then there's been talk of awards, right? Like, should there be an Oscar category? Should there be a Tony category? And I will say that I feel… I, again, feel both ways about this as someone who has won awards. Like, I hold two local theater awards for my intimacy choreography. But awards carry a lot of clout and power, especially to someone, like, starting out and feel[ing] like, oh, if I say no to this

27:07
person who has a higher reputation than me, what does that do for my own professional work? And it's like, yes, I like getting awards. It's nice to be recognized. And I am afraid that it makes people afraid.

Larry Elkin
There are so many roles like that. Music supervisors have waited since forever to get recognized for the work that they do to bring a project to life. And in connection with that, and with your observation that this is such a new role,

27:37
and I don't think most of us really appreciate how many places it's important: I heard a hair-raising story almost 10 years ago, before anyone knew what an intimacy coordinator might be, about a music video shoot. And we had a company event in Nashville. The event was in 2016. The shoot in question might have happened a year or so before that. It is a young female musician:

28:06
She's on the rise, she's popular. She made a video in which she wore very little. The shoot happened at night. And I was speaking with the cinematographer who did that shoot. And he said, this one went on for hours and hours, and in between every take this young girl went into the green room and she just sobbed. He said it was

28:34
horrible to watch. And there was nobody, obviously including the cinematographer who wanted to work on this shoot, who felt empowered to say this has to stop. So this conversation happened as Palisades Hudson was actually getting into the business of being business managers for entertainers and athletes. And even though I

29:01
have nothing useful, in my own opinion, to contribute to the creative process, on more than one occasion I have accompanied young clients of ours to shoots, just so that they had somebody there who was fully prepared to take them by the hand and walk away, you know, if something was unsafe or uncomfortable. But I don't think people recognize necessarily, or at least I don't,

29:27
that there might be an important role and need for intimacy coordinators on a music video shoot. But all you have to do is look at a music video, and there are many examples out there, to know that's true. Are people using intimacy coordinators on those types of shoots now?

Nicole Perry
Yeah, my friend Colleen Hughes in Philly worked on — I'm not even going to tell you whose video it is, because I'm going to be wrong about it. Somebody worked on somebody's music video, that's like a famous somebody, I don't know.

29:57
That's really helpful. But music videos still tend to be non-union projects. And so they're a little Wild West. We don't always know what we're going to get. And too, similarities of dance choreographers. I'm also a member of the Choreographers Guild, which is not a union, but we're working towards unionizing choreographers and getting recognition for choreographers. Like we were talking about music supervisors and

30:23
waiting for their awards. So are choreographers, right? Like, [the] Tonys are giving awards whereas, you know… The Emmys gave some recognition, but not all the award shows recognize dance choreographers. So they're working towards that. And I'm a member of that group, because very often choreographers are not credited on music videos. And people associate the artist with the music video and the movement, rather than the choreographer. And in some cases, those are the same. In some cases, those are not.

30:51
So I think music videos [are] definitely a spot that the industry could bolster. Not just the, like, oh, let's use these roles, but just the professional collaboration and professional respect of other roles. Because it does tend to be about the artist, but not even. Like in your story, Larry, that wasn't even about her. It was about getting this thing made, so the artist can become a brand, so we can

31:20
make money off of this human. I think music videos are really one of those examples of the commodification of artists.

Amy Laburda
Yeah. I mean, while we're talking about commodification and the Wild West, I also was thinking about internet-first video, you know, content creators who are influencers, but even more like there… I've seen many things on YouTube that skirt the line of things that, as we're talking, I'm like, oh, wow, I hope they had some real conversations, or I hope people felt OK to say yes or no to things.

31:48
For a project like that, is there even an infrastructure, really, for hiring someone like you or consulting with someone like you? Or are you really using railroad tracks that have been built on established theater and film productions, and there's really not a way in yet for those more of- the-beaten-path projects?

Nicole Perry
Yeah, I haven't found a way in yet. And I know that a lot of music videos

32:13
do use South Florida as a place where they shoot, because we do have a lot of commercial talent. We have great locations. So I know that they do, but I haven't found that way in yet. And I do have to say that sometimes the way in comes from agents. We have an agency here that, whenever their folks are involved with something… I'm teaching a workshop at the University of Miami this weekend that we hired actors for,

32:40
to be able to do intimate scenes, even though they're not getting undressed. We're not even going to kiss. We're not even going to kiss. What a terrible thing to say. Like, the kiss is scripted in the scene that we're using for the workshop, but we're not going to actually kiss. But the actors are involved in intimacy. So the agent was like, we have to have an intimacy coordinator. Now, that's what that workshop is for, is for directors to learn to work with coordinators. It's for some of their MFA students to learn to work with an intimacy coordinator. But

33:10
this agent is one of those folks that's always like, if one of my talent is engaged in intimacy, I want to know that there's an intimacy coordinator. So the advocacy can come from lots of places. Unfortunately, sometimes it still does require advocacy. It's not a given.

Larry Elkin
Well, you know, through our Film Florida connections, of course, we know a number of talent agents. And Florida is well known and both respected and, in some

33:38
quarters, criticized for our lax approach to regulation. It's worth observing here that our colleagues at Film Florida, who are talent managers and agents, have fought to maintain state regulation in their profession, even though we are deregulating many others, because they worry about exploitation. And again, the overlaps here are fairly numerous and obvious,

34:06
because actors, especially coming up and especially child actors, are so vulnerable to all forms of exploitation. It can be sexual, it can be physical, it can be financial, it can be contractual. So much of the work my colleagues and I do with people who are starting out is making sure they don't sign that piece of paper that's going to give them no leverage to walk off a music video set at two o'clock in the morning that's making them miserable.

34:36
So it's all part of the same rubric. And then you get to the question of “do parties in power, whether they are insurance brokers or state legislators, have to recognize that this is going on.” That there's a mechanism to address the vulnerability and mitigate the risk on a human level and a financial level. But somebody… If you're going to get into places like those music videos,

35:04
probably it's going to be because somebody forces the issue in one place or another.

Nicole Perry
Yeah, it certainly is not accepted practice. And like I said, my friend Colleen that worked on this major video that I cannot remember the person's name of, it's now been a couple of years. And it hasn't grown. It hasn't changed. We're still like, yeah, music videos. That's a real, real hole. And I'm sure that there are others of my colleagues that have worked on them that I don't know.

35:32
It's definitely a spot where we can grow. But it is going to take some folks in power recognizing either the creative or the financial supports that we can provide. And ideally, both. I think we can provide both. And seeing it as an investment. I do think an intimacy coordinator is an investment in your project. An intimacy director is an investment in your production. You do have to pay them. You have to pay them. They're artists. They're people. They have bills. You have to pay them.

36:02
But you get better stories at the end of it. I'm working on a college show right now at NSU [Nova Southeastern University], right near here. And the director and I were talking about how the students are actually more willing to try things because they can say no.

36:19
There's a fear that a lot of, especially high school and college directors have that like, oh, if our students are allowed to say no, they'll say no to everything. But I think even in the professional world, there's a fear that if we let people say no, then they just won't do anything and it'll be just their way. And it's like, no, you think that because that's how you think, friend. But when we offer up these opportunities for people to say no, they're actually more willing to try because they know they could say no.

36:47
And so they're often more willing to take a creative risk because they know that no is an option. And to take a creative risk with abandon, with joy, with full commitment that they might do it if you force them, but then they'll do it guarded and they'll do it without complete commitment and confidence, that then just doesn't make for a good performance. So it's like, why? Why are we not doing our best art?

Amy Laburda
Yeah, it strikes me as

37:14
having a lot of parallels with fight directing and fight choreography, which we've touched on sort of in passing a couple of times. But, you know, I have a theater background, so I know theater much better than film sets. But when you've trained to do a fight properly, there's a lot more freedom there. As you were saying, where you feel safe, you feel like, OK, we both know what we're doing. We're not going to accidentally actually injure each other in a way we didn't intend to. You know, Larry brought up that scene in “Anora” too.

37:43
I can't imagine there was not some level of choreography and communication on that. Which actually leads me to a related question: As someone with a movement, dance background, do you ever collaborate with a fight coordinator? Obviously there are many times when the line between intimacy and fighting is blurry or nonexistent. Is that a thing that's sort of well set up or is there ever a power struggle for like, this my scene?

Nicole Perry 38:10
Yeah, I definitely work with fight directors in theater and stunt coordinators on film sets to do scenes where those things cross over. And it's a conversation, right, of like, where's the line? What's yours? What's mine? And sometimes it's really clear, right? Like, we have sex and then someone dies. Sometimes it's a very clear line of, like, where the interactions are.

38:37
And sometimes it's not, and it's much more collaborative and conversational. And fight directors and stunt coordinators are used to that, because they're always having to at least collaborate with a director. So many of them are great collaborators, because they are used to that. The first intimacy directors and intimacy coordinators came out of the fight world. They were women who were doing fights in theater or doing stunts on film.

39:05
And then they were getting asked to choreograph the sex scene because they were women, right? Which is also really silly. There's no inherent gender excellence in women choreographing sex scenes, but

39:22
that's what people think. So they were getting called in to do these sorts of things. So they were coming from this background. And I think that also lends to our credibility as intimacy professionals when working with fight professionals, is that many of them know my mentors and teachers. And many of them still cross back and forth. I'm not one of those people that crosses back and forth, because my background is in dance. I do occasionally cross over if it's part of

39:51
the intimacy and it's, like, really stylized. Like I did “The Fantasticks” recently and you know, there's the abduction ballet. Like, I did the sword fight because it was also a ballet, not because it was a sword fight.

Amy Laburda
Right. And that entire show, for people who aren't familiar, is really sort of dreamy and fairy tale-y and not meant to be…

Nicole Perry
Meta-theatrical.

Amy Laburda
Yes. Yes, for sure. So,

40:15
to that point, like, when you're working with actors and directors, you sort of touched on this workshop where we're teaching directors how… Since it's sort of a new area, how often do you sort of have to teach the people you're working with what to do with you? And are you starting to now get more jobs where people are like, oh yes, an intimacy coordinator. I know what that is and how you fit in.

Nicole Perry
Yeah, I would say up until this year, I was very often people's first. Their first intimacy professional that they've worked with.

40:45
But that is definitely changing, that people are coming in with other experiences. Actors and directors, theater and film, that people have had other experiences with intimacy professionals. And I like to remind them that if you've worked with one intimacy professional, you've worked with one intimacy professional. Because, just like any other role in the entertainment industry, everybody has their

41:11
creative process and their craft that they bring to it. And no two directors are the same directors. No two intimacy directors are the same directors. And we're all going to bring a little different flavor. And the work is always still the work, at the end of the day, but everybody's got their own personality and process to it. So there's always a little bit of this is how I like to work. And how do you like to work?

41:37
Episodic TV is really fun that way, in that you get a new director every two episodes, and you're starting all over again with your collaborative process and how that goes. But it's also great for learning how to communicate what it is that you do and how to do it and how to work well with each other, because you have to do it a lot.

Amy Laburda
For sure.

Larry Elkin
So Nicole, our friends at Film Florida are going to wonder, and we need to provide some background for people who aren't Floridians or aren't in the industry:

42:07
How do you make a living, in film primarily, entertainment broadly, in a place like Florida, which has had a lot of productions leave or never come because we don't compete effectively in the incentives business? And so our infrastructure has eroded. So our Film Florida friends are going to say, “She's managing to do it.” And young people out there, especially in Florida, might be thinking,

42:36
Is this even a thing, or do I have to envision picking up and going to New York or LA if I even want to think about this?

Nicole Perry
Yeah, it can be done. It's a hustle. It's a hustle in that I don't do one thing. And I work in theater mainly. And then I work on a lot of student films. And then a couple of indie projects. And then a dance concert or an opera thing. And then some SAG

43:05
feature or series that's coming in. It's like, I have all of those things that are available. Plus I'm on staff at IPEC, which — Everybody that works there is an intimacy professional. So we're all doing the thing. So everybody also accepts the fact that our schedule is bananas and that there's some, some times that I can give, like, a full 12-hour day to administrate nonsense. And then there's a stretch of two weeks that

43:32
they will not hear from me at all, because I'm on set or in rehearsal all the time. So I think, can you make a living this way? No. You can make a living by building a living in doing all of the different things. And I think I have that. I'm choreographing a theater show right now. I'm not doing intimacy. I'm doing choreography. I'm building these things together. I'm teaching this workshop. I'm building a life, which then makes a living.

44:00
So I'm trying to do it that way. And I think what's required for a lot of Florida folks in the arts, whatever their role is, is figuring out what a sustainable life looks like that the arts are a part of. Because we've also seen, not only the film incentives gutted, but live arts funding gutted at the state level and Miami-Dade County just restored most of their arts funding, but it was in question for

44:29
a long time and did experience some cuts. So we're seeing arts cuts at every level. That's hard and that's scary. And I don't think that Florida is alone in that. I know that Florida is not alone in that, from conversations with other folks. So to me, it's much more about like, where do I want to have this whole life that I'm building, versus can I make a living at this? Because making a living in the arts

44:57
anywhere is precarious, and requires resilience and commitment and a little bit of foolhardy optimism.

Larry Elkin
Well, I think that's going to be really, really helpful and inspirational to Floridians, and illustrative to people in places far-flung from Florida.

Nicole Perry
And I do have to say, like, what is also nice about working in Florida is that

45:24
the people that hire me, especially like student films and indie projects, like the people that hire me really want me there. If you're making something in Florida, like you really want to make it. And if you are putting part of that little budget that you have to me, you really want me there. And that's something that I really enjoy about working here, whether it's theater or film, is that people are making stuff that they really want to make and they want me to be a part of it. And that's really rewarding.

Amy Laburda 45:53
On that note, this is the time where I ask if you have any projects you're especially excited about coming up. You've mentioned a theatrical project a couple times, but if there's anything you'd like to mention, I'd love to hear about it.

Nicole Perry
Yeah. Well, we've got “M.I.A,” which should be coming out on Peacock in early 2026, which is exciting because the whole series was filmed in South Florida and it has been a minute since we've had a whole series filmed in South Florida. So that's pretty exciting

46:22
for everyone to be able to watch that. But yeah, I'm working on a couple of theater projects this fall, both of which I think are at Thinking Cap Theater, which uses the Hollywood Central Performing Arts Center, which is part of the Hollywood Arts and Culture Center. And we're doing “Lizzie: The Musical,” which is the story of Lizzie Borden. And it is a rock opera, and it's a wild, wild time. And then just for some juxtaposition and palate-cleansing, maybe,

46:52
or just a different audience. We're doing “Cymbeline,” Shakespeare's “Cymbeline.”

Amy Laburda
Is that palate cleansing? That's a good question.

Nicole Perry
I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

Amy Laburda
Certainly something a little different.

Nicole Perry
Yes, something for everyone at Thinking Cap Theater this fall. But I'm choreographing “Lizzie” and choreographing “Cymbeline.”

Amy Laburda
Terrific. Well, unfortunately, I'm not in South Florida. But if any of our listeners are, they should go on my behalf, because it sounds like fun.

Nicole Perry
It's going to be fun.

47:19
“Lizzie” especially, will be. A rock concert.

Amy Laburda
So regular listeners know I like to end the episode giving the last word to my guests. Larry, I'll kick it to you first to ask if you have any final thoughts or questions for Nicole before we wrap up today.

Larry Elkin
Well, the main thought is thank you so much. It's been a great conversation. And I really wanted to have it for the benefit of my colleagues but, as this has evolved, for our audience of Film Florida

47:49
colleagues to see all the excellent work that you're doing. Sharing the information that student films are using you. You know, little indie projects are using you. I'm sure you're making compromises to work with them, and they should know that they can go to somebody like you for guidance and to see where it fits. I just think that that's been a really

48:15
valuable insight, even for me as somebody who only has the most indirect contact with those sorts of projects.

Nicole Perry
Thank you. Yeah, I have a sliding scale of rates, you know, that if you're a SAG feature, like those are pretty much set. SAG tells us what those will be. And theater has something similar. Actors' Equity is the theater actors union, but there's a Stage Directors and Choreographers union that sets rates. So, like, those are set. But when it's not those kinds of projects, I have a lot of freedom.

48:45
And student films always have a discount. But I also give a discount when it's queer stories, because queer stories are really important to be sharing. And especially if you're making a queer story in Florida, gosh, I want to support you. So I try to make those accessible. And one thing I forgot to mention earlier is I actually worked on my first commercial this year. There's not always a lot of commercials that use intimacy coordinators. There was famously... um

49:13
oh my gosh, a gum commercial. I don’t remember which gum. A gum commercial that right after COVID restrictions started being lifted, they did this gum commercial where everybody, like, ran and kissed strangers with their gum, because that was the commercial. But they used an intimacy coordinator for that. But I did one for Frida, the baby company, because they're having

49:36
bums, you know, in states of undress, and babies in states of undress. It was the first time working on a commercial, which — Florida also has a lot of commercials. And I can be useful on those, depending on what your commercial content is. Like, I think this role has some expansion and versatility that we don't always allow it, because really… Everybody thinks I'm the sex police, and I'm not the sex police. It's just not what I'm there for.

50:03
And I'm not HR and I'm not the police. I do not go to work assuming my coworkers are going to be assholes. Like I think that sometimes people think that that's true, that like I'm waiting for people to do something inappropriate or bad and yell at them, or like turn them in or whatever. That's not why I go to work. I go to work because I want to make art that's interesting and that's fun and that people are proud to be a part of and that tells a story that we haven't heard yet. That's what I'm there for.

50:32
If people remember that, that would be a good day.

Amy Laburda
Perfect. Well, I think that's a terrific note to end on. Nicole, once again, thank you so much for sitting down with us. This was a fascinating conversation, and I hope our listeners enjoyed it.

Nicole Perry
Thank you both for having me.

Amy Laburda 50:49
“Something Personal” is a production of Palisades Hudson Financial Group, a financial planning and investment firm headquartered in South Florida. Our other offices are in Atlanta; Austin; the Portland, Oregon metropolitan area; and the New York City metro area. “Something Personal” is hosted by me: Amy Laburda. Our producers are Ali Elkin and Joseph Ranghelli. Joseph Ranghelli is also our director, editor and mixer. If you enjoyed this podcast, please take a moment to rate and review us wherever you're listening.

51:19
It's a simple way to help new listeners find the show, and we really do appreciate it. Thank you.